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 Dream Societies

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Diamondback
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PostSubject: Dream Societies   Thu 24 May 2012, 10:11 pm

Here we consider what we want most in society. We list it, and it may even offer a window into our way of thinking. Now, I shall start off my list.

•Political correctness exposed for the bullshit it is.
•All topics are fair game, and it's not illegal to offend someone.
•You are entitled to what you make, earn, and buy. You have no unwilling obligations towards other people.
•Marijuana legalized for personal use, growing, and distribution.
•Divorce settlements are no longer about one person "cashing in." It is RATIONALLY decided what is best for the children and that is the decision.
•The people vote directly on issues instead of voting for someone to tell them what they want.
•Vigilante/Retribution justice is allowed within one year of the wrongdoing.
•The now obsolete humanities (Psychology, anthropology, etc.) are no longer taught.
•The fine arts of writing, theater, music, and graphical art are stressed.
•Minors can be employed anywhere they are qualified.
•Schooling works by knowledge, not by a set 16-year schedule to earn degrees.
•Breeding is limited, and for those with inheritable genetic defects, eugenics is practiced.
•Quarentine is mandatory, and for higher danger pathogens so is cremation. ONLY APPLIES TO CONTAGIOUS DISEASE
•Consumer and product research happen on the corporate level.
•Only medical, space, and weapons research fields are federally funded.
•If someone else hits you first, fighting is not illegal and lethal force is authorized.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Thu 24 May 2012, 10:34 pm

A bit iffy on some of these, such as vigilante justice and lethal force in fights.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Thu 24 May 2012, 10:36 pm

If someone mugged me I would sure love to place a or piece of lead in their brainstem when they ran away. Get mah stuffs back.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Thu 24 May 2012, 10:42 pm

Yes, but that is not fair to the mugger. I know that does seem a bit of a stupid thing to say, but I believe society should offer the same human rights to all of its citizens, criminal or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Thu 24 May 2012, 10:42 pm

Let me analyze your list:

  • Okay, I agree with political correctness. On a few grounds it is appropriate, but it's overrun everything now and it needs to be seriously pruned.
  • Has it ever been illegal to offend someone? Free speech is in the Constitution. But otherwise, yeah, that sounds rational.
  • So are you saying no taxes? Sorry, but that is not entirely possible. There needs to be a source of money for the main government so they can fund important projects like, you know, defending our country.
  • Okay Marijuana should be legal, so that way there wouldn't be so much nonsense of busting illegal operations and fining people. However, I do think they should tax the hell out of it if the stuff isn't for medical use. It's still uncertain about the effects the stuff has in a long-term situation, and there is proof that it's dangerous to use, so just make it really expensive so less people will want it.
  • That's your opinion. There are failures and successes in the divorce field. Shouldn't the issue be getting rid of all these millions of divorces? Shouldn't the goal be trying to get people to not marry the dream boy in high school that turns out to be a complete jerk five years later? What's best for the children is two parent figures, not just being with the best parent.
  • You're going to have to change the entire education system for that. Did you know that only 35% of high school students graduate with the ability to think formally and abstractly? To come up with their own conclusions and hypotheses? That's your problem.
  • Um, are you talking about going after the guy that robbed your house and beating him within an inch of his life? Because that's just not right. Murderers and rapists should get due justice, not ambiguous vigilante justice. The issue should be making the system of catching and trying criminals more efficient and actually JUST. In some places a child rapist can get off with six months of jail and follow-up "rehab". Let's change that first.
  • Oh screw you Psychology is NOT obsolete. But on a more serious note, no. People should still be able to learn about these things. Perhaps keep them from being actual Majors since they won't land a job, but they should still be taught in colleges and as electives.
  • Ehhh...It's a tough one there. On one hand I do totally agree with you on writing, on the other, I really don't think they should become a focus. Courses that lead to actual "careers" should be stressed more. Do you know how hard it is to become successful in any of these fields? You don't just get out of college and then become a performer. You need to build up your reputation for years, and hold down various other jobs. I'm speaking from experience here. My cousin is an actor, but when he doesn't have a job he has to wait tables.
  • Remember that thing about child worker abuse? Also, they typically have volunteer work if one wants to start a job early. The whole point is that the child labor laws are there so little kids aren't working in the boiler room in the back of McDonalds or something.
  • People are able to be held back or skip grades and courses if they're smart enough, you know. So I don't see the problem there.
  • Whoa whoa whoa what is this China? No. No. No. HUMAN RIGHTS. Too many people? The obvious answer is to educate people about how having too many children makes your life a living hell if you aren't prepared which you probably aren't. I thought you didn't want all these laws. And eugenics is just wrong. So what if the kid has Down syndrome? Guess what, people with DS are able to contribute to society, even if they can only work in the more menial fields. It's up to the parent to determine whether they should get an abortion or not before the child is born.
  • when has there been a serious pathogen in the history of after influenza and polio.
  • Ahahahahaha you're joking right? Corporate level is the WORST level, because the companies that want their items to be passed will pass them, and disapprove of anything that might challenge their product. It's simple business. Leave this to a neutral third party without any funding from any corporation whatsoever.
  • Okay I get what you're saying and I kind of agree with you there.
  • But how can you tell if they hit first or not?????? I do agree with self-defense but they already have passes for those. Also, lethal force? So a guy slaps you and you can break his neck?

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Thu 24 May 2012, 10:51 pm

They throw a punch, I'll throw a knife. Self preservation, y'know? And I said genetic disorders. Down's syndrome is non genetic from what I know. And, honestly, have you heard the way some people refer to divorce? They get alimony, hold support, free money from someone whose life is most likely already ruined.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Thu 24 May 2012, 10:57 pm

But that's not. Right. You talk about vigilante justice, but that's just overretribution. A punch cannot kill. A knife can.

Down symdrome. Is entirely genetic. How did you. Not know that. It's caused by an exta pair of chromosones that messes everything up.

I've heard both sides. My mom divorced because the relationship with the previous husband wasn't working out and she never talked about the money.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Thu 24 May 2012, 11:02 pm

An extra chromosome created by a mutation in a faulty sperm/egg cell.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Fri 25 May 2012, 12:46 am

ANALYSIS OF THE LIST COMPLETE: REPORTING FINDINGS.


I'm not even going to touch on Morals here, because well, I have few of those. Reading this in reverse order may be necessary.
  1. Political Correctness? You can say what ever the hell you want to say unless it infringes upon the rights of other people. Insulting people just to insult them is nothing short of barbaric (no insult to barbarians of course). The term "Political Correctness" was coined by the medias and government so that they can say things without people freaking out about it makes their children sad.
  2. This kinda goes with the above.
  3. Humans are greedy, self serving, and absolutely narcissistic. If all people just stopped donating, paying taxes, or any other form of non-consumer spending we would end up with no civil protection, no federal protection, no road maintenance, no orphanages, schools, churches, any public institution or public service would be a thing of the past.
  4. Legalize it and tax the fuck out of it. Yeah its not as dangerous as the others, but it is still bad. Too much of a good thing is bad, but too much of a useless thing is also bad. I have never met but one productive member of society that smokes pot habitually, that one person worked as a garbage man.
  5. Divorce is a tricky subject. Mainly because so many people have done it, and some not for the right reasons. Treating the burn everyday instead of wearing gloves is a stupid idea. Education of society that divorce is not beneficial to anyone except lawyers and gold diggers (no not nose pickers) is necessary. As well as attempting to educate those horny teens that marriage is not some trivial thing to be done in Vegas one night after meeting.
  6. This would be called a democracy, it is a good system. Until the country is far to big for it to be efficient or effective. Counting several hundred million votes takes some time.
  7. Vigilantes are generally not a good idea because though it is sometimes needed, they are neither trained or very often that vigilant. Justice reform is needed I agree, but let untrained people handle justice? This puts Chuck Norris to shame.
  8. These are absolutely necessary, maybe not a course entirely about these subjects are needed but an overall knowledge should be, with those interested having the ability to do so. The history of mankind and how and why mankind has done so are so very important. When no one knows the past people can make it up to suit their needs.
  9. Yes, you should stress the arts, but not more than math, science, or history. A balance of subjects is needed with course diversity to create well rounded adults who contribute to society in more than just culture.
  10. Child labor laws were enacted for a reason and everyone needs schooling. This makes sense, but abusing desperate children is far to likely to come from it.
  11. This would require so many more tests though... so many more. Not everyone is good at tests. And though I do enjoy tests, too many is too many. Entry Exam, Exit Exam, knowledge holding exam.
  12. Everyone has some sort of inherited genetic defect. You can't make them go away by killing them anyway, people will survive. Yes, most would die, but every time some crazed guy wants to go all genocidal (Because that is exactly what this is.) people survive. Jews, Jews, Jews...(everyone seems to hate them for some reason.) Hebrews... The Boxer rebellion, Witches, so much more. Try and solve the problems with an answer better than KILL THEM ALL.
  13. Sweeping a problem under the carpet and waiting for it to go away is never a good idea, Quarantine is always broken, and when you start burning bodies shit hits the fan. Then you get riots, mob mentality. No body wants Martial Law.
  14. Look below. Yes I did this backwards.
  15. Ha, if things like that were funded by the government we wouldn't get anywhere now would we. I suggest all research be done by individual firms and funded through their respective insurances as well as through consumer funds. Companies should not interfere with product review or creation. This way if something doesn't work or causes horrible side effects it will not be covered by insurance companies or bought by consumers, as well as preventing stagnation of the market through what i like to call "Consumer Milking" where companies draw out the selling of "new products" while they develop upon ones several models away.
  16. It's called self defense... We already have this. If they are trying to kill you, you can kill them. If they are going to try and cut you with scissors let them and sue their ass. It tells them not to do it again and makes you money for their stupidity.


Honestly, your ideas are... not that bad. Just misdirected at effects, not the causes. Sweeping everything under the big carpet and letting it fester only leads to bigger problems down the road.


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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Fri 25 May 2012, 3:19 am

While we're having a look at the list, let's see...


1. Political correctness had a good idea behind it, and not offending people is a noble goal... but then it mutated and went overboard.
2. Free speech is in the constitution, but it isn't always enforced properly. "It's in the Constitution" doesn't mean that much nowadays.
3. Agreed there, but you'll have trouble funding a government that way unless it's through voluntary donation (assuming you want a state, which from other items in the list, it seems like you do. Unless you get a state funded by voluntary donation, which seems problematic...). With regards to Balu, that doesn't mean "no charity." It means people aren't forced to provide for others via wealth redistribution. It means that they're free to give to what they believe are good causes and only those causes. People will give quite willingly even when they're not forced to give stolen from.
4. With you there. That will also make the average dose less potent and dangerous, because quality standards will go up. See also: Prohibition. When alcohol was legal, people didn't go blind from bathtub gin, and we didn't have bootleggers. Marijuana is history repeating itself.
5. There are some divorce cases that go well and some that go badly. That's an issue with how marriages are handled in general; if marriages were treated a bit more like contracts (since they're the biggest contracts anyone's ever likely to get into), we wouldn't have this problem. Lay out beforehand the terms and conditions for each other, terms of divorce, what happens in the event of divorce, etc. via something like a prenup. Then divorce isn't a nasty legal spat that just hurts everybody. It's more of a clean break.
6. See also: the revolving door of Greek democracy. That's... it's own ball of wax. Representative democracy was an attempt to stop mob mentality from hosing everyone by segregating the mob and trying to turn the mob on itself. Whether or not that has worked... arguments can be made either way.
7. Where do you get your one year figure? Seems pretty arbitrary to me. Vigilantes can be very dangerous. If you have that, you need a very definite law code with specific provisions for what is and isn't acceptable, and make the vigilantes liable if they step outside that code in the slightest. Even then, it's got its own issues. Third parties are probably best most of the time.
8. Humanities aren't obsolete. Sounds like you're going through classes on them and are resenting having to take them. Been there done that with two languages, so I know how you feel. The humanities aren't obsolete and probably won't be until the world gets taken over by Skynet or something.
9. Stressing the arts is all well and good, but writing and art don't feed people or build and maintain the physical capital that provides for everyone. The real issue is stressing trade knowledge, which I'll get to in a moment.
10. The Prussian education system is bollocks, and more and more people are starting to realize that. What we used to have, which we've lost, is an emphasis on apprenticeships and on-the-job learning. You don't get as much general knowledge that way, perhaps, but you do learn a craft, which is valuable to yourself and to society.
11. No. Just no. Eugenics is never a good idea. Among other reasons, like moral abhorrence, it's way too easy to take it too far.
12. Meh. I look askance at most things that are mandatory. Balu already said anything else I might feel like saying.
13. Underwriter's Labs, anyone? People tend to forget that exists. http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/
14. Don't even fund that. Federal funds tend to turn things into a racket to get more federal funds, at the cost of making actual progress. Meanwhile, the taxpayers are paying for rent-seekign, and that's never a good thing.
15. That's undue escalation of force. Let me refine that for you: If someone else uses lethal force first, THEN lethal force is authorized, because you didn't escalate anything. If the other person uses non-lethal force, then you can fight back with non-lethal force, and if you accidentally kill your attacker (for instance, you shoved him over, and there was something sharp behind him that no-one saw, and he died falling on it), then you could make a self-defense or accident case. He holds liability for any damages he caused or received in the course of aggressing against you. If he tries to punch you and you shoot him in the face right off, then you're as guilty as he was.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Fri 25 May 2012, 9:15 am

Your right donation would still commence, but without tax incentives I think it would present less money to publicly funded things. Maybe I'm just being overly pessemistic about the average ability for consumers to be philanthropists.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Fri 25 May 2012, 2:33 pm

Dance.Fucker.Dance wrote:
Here we consider what we want most in society. We list it, and it may even offer a window into our way of thinking. Now, I shall start off my list.

•Political correctness exposed for the bullshit it is.
•All topics are fair game, and it's not illegal to offend someone.

Okay, this is debateable. I believe you're allowed First Amendment rights as long as your words don't incite violence and I can't remember the exact phrasing of the other restriction, but it's something along the lines of slander. So saying everything is fair game, aside from something like screaming "FIRE" in a crowded building, I'm fine with, but if you're suggesting removing those two, then hell no.

•You are entitled to what you make, earn, and buy. You have no unwilling obligations towards other people.
•Marijuana legalized for personal use, growing, and distribution.

Okay, how are you going to define personal use? A certain amount of square footage you're allowed to grow? I can be growing weed for "personal ues" all I want and then sell it to whoever I so choose. If you legalize weed, then you have an assload of problems to deal with, including, off the top of my head, public intoxication, the issue with minors smoking marijuana, marijuana in the drug market, and so on and so forth. So it's not as simple as legalizing it for personal use unless you've got a plan in mind.

•Divorce settlements are no longer about one person "cashing in." It is RATIONALLY decided what is best for the children and that is the decision.
•The people vote directly on issues instead of voting for someone to tell them what they want.

This would not work in our current system. One, because we have way too big of a population to do this. In the old days of Greece this worked because the cities were so much smaller, but across an entire nation? At what point do you call a limit? If everyone in America votes except one guy? Do you leave him out? Not to mention that most people aren't intelligent enough to vote correctly. So you're dealing with massive issues being handled by people who are only doing what they're being spoon-fed to. Not that our politicians are too much better, but at least they mire each other down enough to prevent harm.

Then you have the issue of how this will work, physically. Are there voting booths people are required to go to once a week? Is it electronic? Electronic raises the issue of it being hacked or malfunctioning. People being physically required to work would wreak HAVOC on things. Imagine once a week having to sit through three hours of traffic to go back to your local voting booth, not to mention all the time spent calculating millions of votes. along with recounts.

A direct democracy is not feasible. How would we settle issues like going to war? No average Joe is going to vote to raise taxes, even though taxes are a necessary force for our government.


•Vigilante/Retribution justice is allowed within one year of the wrongdoing.

You need to stop reading Alan Moore. The idea of vigilantism is appealing but it would not work. At all. Let's say someone tresspasses on my lawn. Can I go and blow their head off with a fucking shotgun because they wronged me? This is ridiculous. Vigilantism does NOT work. We can't have a system of justice that relies on people murdering one another. That won't fix anything but propagate more violence.

Let me put it to you this way. Do you know how many people have been excuted off of false evidence or been killed when they were innocent? If we have professional coroners doing this, then how do you expect Average Joes to have the intelligence to fairly decide these things? Legally allowing vigilantism is tantamount to the collapse of our society. This would not work. Ever.


•The now obsolete humanities (Psychology, anthropology, etc.) are no longer taught.

....what? What is your reasoning behind this? Completely forgetting PSYCHOLOGY? Anthropology? Obsolete? How are those obsolete? Psychology isn't obsolete, we haven't found magic cures for, say, schizophrenia, or depression, or how about sociopaths. Obsessive compulsive disorder. ADHD. The list goes fucking on. These aren't obsolete, I don't know why this would constitute a dream society.

Outlawing attempts to further knowledge does not make for a utopia, it makes a dystopia.


•The fine arts of writing, theater, music, and graphical art are stressed.
•Minors can be employed anywhere they are qualified.

There's a reason we outlawed this, it's called fucking child labor. No. We can't start turning jobs over to qualified 15 year olds. Why? Because there's a very subjective definition of qualified. How about people turning over jobs from the truly qualified to their children? Or what about 9 year olds being "qualified" to work in dangerous conditions?

•Schooling works by knowledge, not by a set 16-year schedule to earn degrees.

Again, there is no way this could be regulated or controlled. How are you supposed to accept someone for a job if their diploma reads "Yeah, this guy's smart" instead of "Ph.D in Biology". This would totally throw off our system and opens the door to corruption and incompetent teachers unleashing thousands of idiots that aren't able to handle critical jobs.

•Breeding is limited, and for those with inheritable genetic defects, eugenics is practiced.

What? No. Limited breeding I could understand, but it's a very slippery path. Maybe giving tax breaks to people who only have one or two children, that would be okay with me. But eugenics? Come on now. We can't start neutering people we don't feel are at the same grade. What about the mentall disabled, you asked? We would literally be doing the same thing as the Nazis at this point. If you honestly feel that any course of action the NAZIS took will better our society...

Not to mention there's a reason we need genetic diversity. It's a very small step from people who are scientifically proved as inferior to those who we just perceive as inferior. I'm color blind. Technically, I'm retarded.


•Quarentine is mandatory, and for higher danger pathogens so is cremation. ONLY APPLIES TO CONTAGIOUS DISEASE.

I don't think we've ever had to deal with a disease that would require this. We'd be better off devoting resources to removing things like malaria from 3rd world coutnries than setting up institutes for this. Or just making vaccines to prevent those diseases...

•Consumer and product research happen on the corporate level.
•Only medical, space, and weapons research fields are federally funded.

•If someone else hits you first, fighting is not illegal and lethal force is authorized.

Yeah, some jackass punchesm e on the shoulder and I kill him. There is a reason we only allow for necessary force to be used to defend yourself, it's so people can't go on a killing spree and then get away with it because it was "self-defense".

I'm not trying to be brutal here, but this almost sounds like you're looking for an excuse to get in fights with the vigilantism and the lethal force in fighting. Those would not solve ANYTHING
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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Fri 25 May 2012, 3:11 pm

Oh right! I forgot to mention child labor laws!


I've been working off and on since I was 14 or so, maybe a bit younger. I was competent in school and still had plenty of time for a job. I enjoyed my job. I got minimum wage, and I was happy with it. But my job was illegal since I technically wasn't allowed to work, and I was anonymously contracted through my mom, who also worked there. Massive paperwork headache just so I could wash some effing dishes and mop an effing floor.


Are the standards for qualification subjective? How about letting them take a crack at it under supervision and see how they do? If they can do it well, then they're qualified. Hiring minors involves risks: risks of underqualification, possibly higher liability, etc. - especially considering there are almost certainly other people with more experience. That alone would limit the number of kids who could go to work, and employers aren't forced to give employment to people who are obviously incompetent. Kids can't do the job? They get fired, like anyone else, and then everyone's back where they started.

As for dangerous conditions, it was an economic necessity back in the day when many kids needed to work in order to help feed the family, and when most jobs that could be taken by someone with a child's work experience were dangerous. Nowadays, I doubt that would be as much of a problem, given that there are more opportunities for things like stocking shelves and sweeping floors. Since those are much safer, more secure jobs, those would probably constitute the majority of child jobs nowadays.

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PostSubject: Re: Dream Societies   Fri 25 May 2012, 4:24 pm

My main idea with no unwilling sums due is no more abuse of welfare/unemployment.

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